____Pondbrain___________________
                 023 . Gay Marriage.

asked my friend if he saw this post -
[10:54] masterteacher: Debating with fundies eh?
[10:54] Symphony of Noise: apparently i hate myself

- and real quick before the massive brick wall of text... a relevant post off of my wall from between my first post in this thread and the 2nd when i jump in..

Conversations lately remind me of how peculiar this american society is. So many "morals" are pushed around by people who follow the bible. Yet, if you were to make a television series and present the whole thing verbatim from front to back, most of it wouldn't be let near the airwaves. And if it was made into a series of movies, without cutting a ton out it would be HIGHLY, HIGHLY lucky to get as low as an R rating.

Just saying. For all the good stuff cherry picked for church services there is just about as much in there that pops the eyes and raises the eyebrows.

note: after re-reading this again after putting it into this page I realized I was really effectively triple-teamed.  my words were pretty deeply fucking tri-raped.  that's how i feel about it.  however much of an ass hole i am or not, i got the ass fucking.

so all i could do besides this and fight back on that thread was delete all my posts. may this be a standing lesson to me to keep my fucking mouth shut less i end up feeling like i had 3 people pee in my mouth with no end result other than "hahaha that agnostic fuck, fuck him" .. wether that's true or not. that's how i now feel.

Meg .
Dear those who hate gay marriage for religious reasons: Did you know you're not supposed to cut your hair? Or eat shell fish? or play football? or have tattoos? or wear polyester? That nice gold ring around your finger? Yeah, you're not allowed that either. Oh, and try your best not to get testicular cancer, because if you have one of those suckers hacked off - you're not welcome in a church. I suppose you're gonna skip over those? (If you want the exact bible verse, I'll reference it to you.)

Josh .
BREATH WOMAN. Whats with the venting? heh

Karen .
You tell'em Meg! Vent away!!

Meg .
I'm not venting - just stating an opinion. :]

Josh .
Ah, then it's all good. :)

Anth .
IM CATHOLIC

Meg .
That sucks. Catholic church ceremonies freak me out because of the sing-talking they do.

Anth . ‎^

Erin .
Not to mention the whole "unclean" thing for women-- can't be in a church if you're on your period, or for a certain amount of time after childbirth-- oh, and that time is longer if it's a girl than if it's a boy.

Erin .
And being forced to marry your rapist, who pays your father for "damaged property"

Karen .
I do not attend a church. Never have. If I need to pray I do it in my own way and wouldn't want to be associated with a church that has those ridiculous beliefs.

Karen .
No wonder there are so many fucked up people in Thai world.

Erik .
there is no point arguing with judgmental religious types. the fact they are outwardly judgmental and would actually even consider taking rights from people via voting or any other actions proves already that they aren't even following their own religion.

so, they won the argument without trying. i just don't talk to that type of idiot. that's why for a minute i thought travis might be anti-homosexual or anti-some color, some sort of bigot, and i asked some questions to figure it out and if he turned out to be... or any long time friend i didn't know (it's happened) ... i'm not talking to them anymore. :D

Andrew .
When people are unwilling to impartially analyze their own worldview, let alone anyone else's... that bothers me.

Erik .
‎^ as long as that doesn't apply to anybody thinking people should give racism / bigotry a chance, i agree :P

Seth .
Perhaps you should read the bible before you go and make yourself look silly :P

Erik .
Seth I see nothing in this thread that is inaccurate :( So I can't figure out who that statement was pointed at haha

Seth .
I only read the status, not the comments. Much of what she said was either out of context, or not true.

Erik .
Everything she said is in the bible. I read it twice back to back in a short time. Which is what lead to me being agnostic.

Erik .
At least the King James version. Guess we may be talking about different bibles / religions here. heh.

Seth .
I read the KJV. Everything could be true, but it's all taken out of context.

Seth .
Megan is great, don't get me wrong! I just think that, if you're trying to make a valid point, you should use valid arguments instead of taking things
from something you've barely read way out of context.

Erik .
<sarcasm> i wish facebook would update status messages slower....... :D </sarcasm>

Erik .
I don't know... in context a lot of the bible is as shocking as she's commenting. Unless the context you speak of is the time frame where they did horrible stuff all the time thus this crazy stuff by our standards today, at the time, would have been a massive step up for them? But that withstanding, I think her point is the people like, say, the psychotic westboro baptist church folks... it's just silly.

Amy .
Megan, old covenant vs. new covenant. "Rules" about marriage stayed the same. God designed it to be a certain way. Two men or woman can be together if they want. It's their choice. I don't care if they get the same financial benefits, or any of the other benefits of marriage. But we are trying to redefine marriage, a covenant created by God. All I'm asking, out of respect for the faith called Christianity, just call it something else. you don't have to believe it, but respect it.

Erik .
^ shows direct disrespect to gay folks who don't want discriminated against by things they may or may not believe in / agree with... religion and legal (not 'god's) law need desperately to not only be separate but on different planets.

Erik .
i think it's funny it's labeled as an "assault on sanctity of marriage" ......... *looks at the divorce rate* .... I have no words to complete this statement... just..... sigh.

Amy .
Not if you look at it as a purely religious term. Marriage is a Holy union. It's a Christ-based covenent and it is defined BY GOD in the BIBLE as something specific. If Muslim's have a specific type of ceremony or uninion for which I don't meet the requirements, I'm notgoing to try to change it. Same deal. Lol, am I making any sense?

Erik .
So you're saying drop the word marraige from all legality and call it something else and leave the word marraige just for the religous judgemental condemning angry folks?

Amy .
Really, like I said, I have no problem with two people of the same gender being unified. It is their right. But it should be called something else. It's the terminology I am getting at.

Amy .
No.

Amy .
Not every person who claims to be Christian, or religious, is judgemental, condemning or angry, as you are stating.

Erik .
so nobody would ever go to a court house or a marraige license. That would all be done at church? But then you know the religous folks would demand sooner or later whatever the new term is shouldn't be allowed to be given to same sex unions.... it's all so silly to non religous folks. Why not simply follow the teachings which generally say judge not?

Amy .
And I am not stating that you have to be a Christian to get married. That isn't in the definintion. But really, I don't like debating this topic when there are bigger fish to fry. People need to know about the hope they have in Christ. It's not about our specifc sins, it's about our separation from God and how we can find Him.

Erik .
I didn't say that. Talking about the TONS who are relating to this topic. please dnt rewrite my sentences. I wasn't anywhere saying or implying all.

Erik .
Ahh grats umping in when you don't like debating it :P

Erik .
Jumping*

Amy .
I personally try to follow all of Christ's teachings. I think Christ was saying that we shouldn't condem others. We can't possibly do that. But we have to make judgments about people. There is a huge difference between the two though. A HUUUGE difference. I have absolutely NO interest in anything but loving people. But if someone is messing up, I'm gonna tell em :)

Amy .
Hey, it's a door opener :)

Erik .
Yet you stated gay people should get married, just not under the word married? They should be alienated under law and forced to take some other term for the exact same thing? I find that suspect, I'm sorry

Amy .
And I may not like it, but sometimes we do things we don't necessarily like. Such as lide.

Seth .
Gays want to take place in a religious covenant and ceremony? Can't happen, according to the religion that created it. Sorry.

Amy .
Find it what you will. My point of view: God created us a certain way. When we go the opposite direction, there is conflict. But I don't think we should try to change His laws because we've changed. God stays the same. This God who wrote the bible also created the institution of marriage. My belief on this matter has NOTHING to do with alienation of anyone. Only obedience to God's word. He defined it a certain way, not out of hatred for anyone, but because one man and one woman is His best for us.

Erik .
I would have been ok with conceding and voting for some other word to be applied to all marraiges on the law side and leaving christians with it but if it's just another word only for gay people.... I mean.... the civil rights movement... might as well have had a setup where whites touched a sticker as they entered bathrooms and the blacks touched a different sticker on the same doorway so we know one is entering a door and the other is clearly entering a portal... it's, to repeat myself, silly. Unless I've been looking at the wrong dictionaries all this time

Erik .
Keep your god's laws away from government would you? It makes a silly bigoted mess.

Seth .
The government is using God's laws, and ideas, such as marriage. What now?

Amy .
So good by to laws such as, "don't murder." as well then?

Erik .
Because nobody but god could have come up with don't kill or steal. You're stretching. And show me coveting laws. Or gluttony. Greed? If there was a law against greed we would HAVE to discard capitalism. I don't think you thought that one through kind sir. What now indeed

Amy .
I'm not trying to puch my faith on ANYONE. I'm just asking that people be willing to respect a faith its facets, whether it's their or not.

Amy .
Well, if you don't believe in the same God I do, then ya, it could be viewed that way. I happen to believe the creator of the universe thought of it before any of us could have...you know, since He put us here.

Seth .
I'm talking about marriage, which is clearly a religious ceremony/convenant/idea. Why would the government put its hands into something religious?

Erik .
Yeah, forcing religion into law and isolating people your religion disagrees with is fine :P. Just feels to me like you guys really try to ignore one thing you say while other things are said.... I don't say it to be mean,I truly do out of hope that some day anyone I say it to will think deeper into things they say.... but, world history shows I would be better off not bothering. And that is truly petrifying.

Erik .
Ok I'm done here. You guys are throwing some far, far out in left field spin on this. Yes. Let the gays wed and everyone murder and steal. Sarcasm by the way. So glad I wasted my time on this. It just goes to my original comment saying there's no point in bothering up top of this thread. Sigh.

Amy .
Yeah, people like to pick and choose parts of the bible they want to believe. But I think it needs to be taken in as a whole. And yeah, some Christians are hypocrites. So are non-Christians. We can never be perfect, Christian or not. That's why I have faith in God, not people. But what specifically am I ignoring?

Seth .
Whoa, hey now. You mentioned the goverment not wanting religious rules as law. I respect that. I was pointing out an example of the government
exerting its influence on a religious institution: marriage. I was
showing that while you're saying you don't want religion to affect law,
you're saying you want law to affect religion. I thought it was
inconsistent. I never mentioned murder etc. This girl may have, but I'm
not thoroughly reading what everyone else says.

Seth .
Though, by saying "you guys," you are likely trying to invalidate any
point I make by lumping me up :) Also, it sounds like you're using
diversionary tactics, and attacking somebody's intelligence as a means of backing away from this discussion. Can't respond intelligently to points? Attack others' intelligence and back out. Smooth, easy tactic that makes
you look good. Well done, sir!

Erik .
I'm not worried about looking bad in the face of bigotry and words being twisted on me.

Erik .
I never, ever said I wanted law to effect religion. Another example of words being twisted and inserted. And you accuse me of calling any of you ignorant when I never did. You guys MUST know people of whom I refer. You have televisions and radios. Maybe it's naive of me to assume you use them and see what most everyone else sees. You have to speak generally on a topic this massive. Again, sorry I bothered trying.

Seth .
I didn't twist anything on you. I'm trying to make a valid, thought out
point. I don't know what anyone else is saying, but I'm not being a
bigot. By using such words you dismiss all I've said and make me look like
a "scary bigot." I don't like that. I'm an intelligent person that thinks everything through, especially what I believe. If you aren't respectful
enough to have an actual conversation with somebody without insulting them, that's fine, but I'm not going to let you make me look like a bigot, or an ass.

Erik .
Definition of BIGOT

: a person who is obstinately or intolerantly devoted to his or her own opinions and prejudices; especially : one who regards or treats the members of a group (as a racial or ethnic group) with hatred and intolerance

Erik .
Sorry for using definitions.

Amy .
Not generally, specifically. It is a massive topic because we made it that way. We make gray areas out of black and white. You might not intentionally be saying that, but the idea is being implimented through the practicality of that statement.

Erik .
We did make it that way. Because this should be a non issue. Two people love eachother, end of story. If you don't like it, don't do it. It doesn't effect you at all. And if those two are being bad in the eyes of whatever gods may or may not exist, looks like those gods will take care of it. <=== This seems pretty simple. Yet, here we are.

Amy .
I can't speak for others, but I'm not intolerant. Nor do I have any hatred or prejudices towards people who are gay. I simply have a specific "religious" belief. I'm not trying to make other follow it.

Seth .
Some people want the government to create laws about a religious ceremony / practice. I don't think the government should be involved with marriage at ALL. I don't want the government to tell me who I can or cannot marry,
because they shouldn't be involved so heavily with religion. If they want
to make laws forcing issues in religion, and people support this, we should abolish any notion of "separation of church and state."

Erik .
I really want to scroll up and copy/paste to use your own words which literally go against the last two entries here.... but would it really do anything? I really doubt it... :(

Seth .
My upstairs neighbors are male homosexuals, and my downstairs neighbors are female homosexuals. I don't have a problem with this. The downstairs
neighbors are great neighbors, upstairs not so much. This is because of
who they are, and not because of their sexuality. I get along great with
them. If they want to be together, that's their deal. I like to mind my
own business. Do I want them to marry within their genders? No, because
it violates a religious institution. Would I be fine with a "domestic partnership?" Yes, because it's a concept created by society and resembles
a marriage, could provide the same legal benefits, while skirting the
"marriage" issue.

Erik .
And my point all along which I'm sure you can find more than one example of in this thread alone, is it's not right that they have to be isolated with the term "domestic partnership." that is wrong. that is the very essence of bigotry. it is. it is literal. if christians want marriage to be what god intended it to be and force a different thing for gay people to use, it should be universal in the legal community. then christians can call it marriage from birth to death and dance about it while everybody is equal in the law. that's the point. i don't care what christians want to do, i really don't. that's their deal. but to come out of their bubble and force people they don't agree with that don't fit the puzzle pieces in their religion to have a different name for the exact same thing in a world that is outside of theirs - legality - that is wrong. it's just wrong. giving them thesame rights and putting a different shirt on it still is a direct isolation.

and if you want to expand the subject to total separation of church and state relating to murder and all that, even though that's hilariously silly and reaching and you know it... Fine. Murder will now be called ending legally, and stealing will be called nonobad don't takey. i mean, lets do the full shabang then i don't care. whatever it takes to end these stupid, stupid arguments and let the religious people who ARE bigoted, be bigoted to themselves and leave it at that.

Again, NOT SAYING ANYONE IN THIS THREAD DIRECTLY IS BIGOTED. Saying some things that were said are bigoted. And if they are, they are, so what. I don't think less of people for going the route they believe in. That's fine for them. It happens. But please, lets be in reality here. Whatever it takes so people can live their lives and not have to have some unrelated group crying foul and sticking their fingers in others' lives. Abortion. 'Nuff said.

(thank you facebook for catching up so i can use chrome, and see i was spelling marriage wrong by hand)

Seth .
Marriage = Religious
Homosexuality goes against that religion.
Having homosexual marriage means the government is controlling religion.
That's a bad idea.

Brittany .
The problem I'm having with this thread is that I don't think Amy is disagreeing with you. I think what she said is that the God we know gives all people free-will, to live how they want and create whatever kind of government they want. Judgement will come in the end and none of us can cast judgement on another for what is or is not sinful. But, Christians are also allowed to believe that something is wrong according to Gods laws just as others are allowed to believe its right. BOTH have their right to believe what they believe and speak about it without being harassed.

Brittany .
Ahem, sorry. I just think this thread got super blown up and I don't like missing a good conversation with open parties (: hi Megan! I miss youuuuu.

Erik .
Many disagree homosexuality is against most major religions. The very very few times it can be interpreted as that, it's loose and dodgy.

Brittany: I understand all of that. And I agree. Sorry if anything I've said has made it look like I'm disagreeing with the overall things Amy is saying. I'm just disagreeing strongly and most directly with the concept of forcing gay people to not be, and this word is chosen on purpose, married. It's wrong to force them into another word just because a sect of humanity disagrees with them based on their religion. That's ALL.

Erik .
And I only capped all to try and emphasize that that is really all of my point I'm trying to get at while fighting off other strays the conversation has taken, and answering them. :D

Erik .
not intending to be mean to you Ms. Schoel. :D

Erik .
Shit, **Many disagree that most major religions that are quoted as being against homosexuality / gay marriage.... are actually against it.... that first sentence was misworded. Sorry, this whole topic makes me sick that it even exists.. :( (as far as the having to defend people being happy together and having the same rights as anyone else being happy together regardless of gender)

Brittany .
Yeah. It's a little sketchy considering that marriage is based off a religious practice.... If that practice did not become governed, then we wouldn't be having this problem. But it is. And im not sure it should really matter at this point what you call it.... Call a snake a horse, it's still a snake.....

Erik .
they've found evidence that people have been joining and staying with eachother (married, really) since long before the earliest documented religion I know of..... but, that's a whole nother story.

Amy .
Both of you are summing up what I'm trying to say.

Erik .
So Amy you have no problem with everybody getting married in government based law with the same term as long as the term "Marriage" is strictly religious? If so I may have misunderstood that point.
a few seconds ago · Like

Amy .
Pretty much. :)

Erik .
Just to double make sure here, so straight and gay people legally getting civil unions, as the only option for benefits and everything..... and marriage being a term relating to religious people who are getting married in church sermons and whatever their faith dictates ..... that's cool?

Amy .
I have no interest in taking away anyone's rights. I have interest in keeping a religious term religious though.

Erik .
but even with what you say it's shitty for the gay people who disagree it's wrong to be gay who want to be married under religion... but i guess that's a slightly different problem nothing can be done about :(

Amy .
Kind of. :) I don't necessarily think you have to be religious to call it marriage. The definition is a union between one man and one woman, not one religious man and one religious woman. So yes, it can seem that I am a bigot towards gay people believing that way. But from my point of view, I am not. I have no bitterness or distaste for anyone who is gay. I do not look down upon anyone for it. I really beleive we are all in the same boat, whether gay or straight. So yes, the law should keep the term marriage defined as it is. But that isn't to say that there shouldn't be the equivalent uninion for people who choose to give it different bounderies, under government law.

Erik .
Ahh well.

Amy .
For me, this isn't about controlling anyone. It's purely about the sanctification of a term that is Holy.

Amy .
Anyways, I'm sensing this is worn out. Sorry for blowing up everone's feed with this ;)

Erik .
Sadly I don't think anything's going to stop the term being legally taken away from gay people by a small section of religious people. Even though many religious people and many gay people don't agree it should be taken away. And I'm not the only one who sees that as being wrong to the point of it making me personally sick to the stomach.

And I'm not sorry for blowing up whoever's feed. There is an unfollow option. :>

Amy .
For me, this isn't about controlling anyone. It's purely about the sanctification of a term that is Holy.

Amy .
Anyways, I'm sensing this is worn out. Sorry for blowing up everone's feed with this ;)

Erik .
Sadly I don't think anything's going to stop the term being legally taken away from gay people by a small section of religious people. Even though many religious people and many gay people don't agree it should be taken away. And I'm not the only one who sees that as being wrong to the point of it making me personally sick to the stomach.

And I'm not sorry for blowing up whoever's feed. There is an unfollow option. :>

Brittany .
Its kinda like if there was a Meijer around for like 50+ years.... And then Wal-Mart comes along and they're like hey, we want to be called Meijer too! We're like the exact same thing!
And Meijer is like nah brah, uhm, we kinda created this thing we got going and you're the same but you're like new and a little different than us in the way you roll, so how bout you come with your own name and rock that?
It's not offensive. We distinguish between things that way allllll over the world. Otherwise, there wouldn't be male and female bathrooms. Are they separate because they're unequal? No. Theyre separate because there's a difference.

K so I'm not saying I think we should give gay marriage a different name, but at least you should see why it's not this whole big bigoted thing.

Erik .
See: definition of bigot. That's the definition, though. :(

Erik .
Definition of MARRIAGE

1
a (1) : the state of being united to a person of the opposite sex as husband or wife in a consensual and contractual relationship recognized by law (2) : the state of being united to a person of the same sex in a relationship like that of a traditional marriage <same-sex marriage>
b : the mutual relation of married persons : wedlock
c : the institution whereby individuals are joined in a marriage
2
: an act of marrying or the rite by which the married status is effected; especially : the wedding ceremony and attendant festivities or formalities
3
: an intimate or close union <the marriage of painting and poetry — J. T. Shawcross>
about a minute ago · Like

Erik . Looks like the dictionary caught up. .... Just saying. That's Merriam-Webster too.

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/marriage

Marriage - Definition and More from the Free Merriam-Webster Dictionary
www.merriam-webster.com
Definition of marriage from the Merriam-Webster Online Dictionary with audio pronunciations, thesaurus, Word of the Day, and word games.

Erik .
Pretty simple concept. Really.

Brittany .
Dude. I'm still not arguing with the concept. I just don't understand why everyone's gotta get their panties in a bunch over calling it marriage.
That's like black people finally getting equal rights, and demanding to be called white.....

Erik .
c : the institution whereby individuals are joined in a marriage

Who cares what gender they are.

Erik .
We're not arguing the concept but we're clearly arguing the word. :D

Erik .
One thing Seth and I agreed with is Government shouldn't be involved with Marriage at all. That would be awesome. Nobody should care then who was married and who wasn't as plenty of religions allow all manners of marriage. Still though, people would try to stop others from doing it. It's just how humans work when they're controlled by their beliefs. Hopefully I'm wrong on that, but there's just the whole of human history to look at.. :D

Brittany .
It'd be nice if you could quit hating on religious people too. Just because someone has a belief system they follow doesn't mean that theyre brainless robots. That's insulting and you've said a few things implying you think anyone who belie...

Brittany .
That's just the impression I get. Maybe that's not how you mean it, but that's how it's coming across. Just sayin'.

Erik .
I wasn't hating on religious people. Sorry if that's how it came off.

Erik .
Any "hating on religious people" would have been directly squarly, directly, and at the very feet of the specific, shrinking section that wants to project their beliefs and hatreds onto others and wants to control others. Where they have no business doing so. And that's clearly not all religious people. So, to repeat, I am sorry if it came off that way and am sorry if anyone was offended thinking that was the point.

Erik .
and my grammar is circling the toilet apparently... any topic that (i'm rewording this over and over trying to get it as close to what i mean as possible) ...... involves religion dictating things to other people, whether they disagree or not.... always drives me crazy.

Erik .
I know I've said it but I'm going to repeat it - I don't care what religion people follow. That's their deal. I just wish it would stay their deal and not end up on others. That's really what my entire involvement (VERY STUPID, VERY STUPID OF ME) has been about.

Erik .
I'm not bigoted though, because my opinions are always open to change. I used to be Lutheran. I am now Agnostic for the moment. I want to evolve. I don't ever want to be one of those people we all know who are forever who they were 20 years ago because they "are who they are" and just stopped learning and changing as things around them change and adapting... learning.... evolving... I just have a problem most people have. Inability to get exactly what I mean across.

Though I am a bigot in regards to hating bigots who go out of their way to lock down and isolate others. That's true.

Brittany .
If that's the case then you should be mad at government, not religious people. Take a good long thought about how this wouldn't be an issue if government didn't get involved in the unions of any people. Hmmm.

Erik .
I am. I never said I wasn't. And for the fourth or fifth time I'm pretty sure, I'm not mad at all religious people. Only those going out to specifically stop gay marriage or otherwise not let them get married but force them to choose whatever other word for the exact same thing (disregarding gender) Am I now dancing in the same circle with a new person? hahaha

Brittany .
Again, just going off stuff you say.

Erik .
I never said all religious people. I think that's more than clear. Probably was a few times saying it ago.

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PM / SIDE CONVERSATIONS

Erik .
sorry i'm not responding any faster... i am severely hamstringed because i have to type the comments in that thread on a cell phone which is amazingly slower than if i had a keyboard

Amy .
Bummer! We can put this off until later if you want. This is fun

Erik .
I don't find it fun at all.
there's nothing fun for me about reading people trying to justify bigotry.

Erik .
but i'm done looking at that thread. it's killing me.

Amy .
Sorry if I'm confusing you or making you sick. I just want you to know that I am in no way intending to alienate anyone. I'm just trying to stick up for what I believe is truth. I love people, all of them, whether they believe the same as I do or not, whether they love me back or hate me. But I am not willing to keep my mouth shut, haha. Any ways, sorry for killing you I'm still a little confused on what exactly you were getting at. But anyways, have a good day!

Erik .
Guess being directly attacked got me back in.
I feel like I could throw up and/or cry right now.
You have a funny way of showing your love.

Erik .
And you shouldn't keep your mouth shut. The goal isn't to shut your mouth. It's to hopefully get you to stop, look at what's in your head causing these things to come out of your mouth.

It's really amazing to read from someone who's not in that tunnel.

Erik .
clarification: it's amazing for someone like me, who is agnostic (believe in higher powers, but don't think any religions on earth right now have the slightest clue what they're talking about) - looking at things people say who are obviously speaking from the viewpoint of any whichever religion. which, by the nature of the beast, is tunnel vision. you can only see what you are conditioned to see, thus comment accordingly. i get that. it just kills me to see.

Amy .
I'm not attacking you Sorry it feels that way. I am looking at what is coming out of my mouth. Maybe you misunderstand me. ? All I am saying is that, whether we like or not, marriage is a religious term. It always has been. So if we wan't a marriage-like union that changes it's definiton, just change the name outof respect for a faith, that you may not share.

Amy .
I really think you are misreading the intention of my words. I am stating my beliefs. I'm not hating on you or anyone else who doesn't share them. I'm not feeling any prejudices towards anyone right now. There is notno heated anger behind any of my words. To me, the issue isn't about gay rights. I truely look at a gay person the same as anyone else.
I just have respect for the God I believe in.

Erik .
You believe marriage should never ever be used for anything but man and woman being together. Correct?
This is only based on every single thing I've read from you. However nonabrasive you intend it to be.
You aren't, but Seth was.
I never said you did, either. So don't worry. I just stated to you why I jumped back into the thread. Didn't say you were.
So, lets pretend like people weren't getting married before the earliest recorded religions. And you're right. So, what do you say then to people who disagree with you (myself being one, having deeply studied various religions) that there actually isn't anything in religions directly stating being gay is bad? I'm really curious what you'll say here. Then what? So then even in religion, they believe they can get married.

Amy .
I suppose we all have tunnel vision to some extent. I'm not conditioned to believe what I believe, though it may seem that way to those who choose to see it that way. I believe the Bible is the word of God. If you want to call me a bigot for that, go ahead But you know, there is plenty of non-religious support for the bible. If there was a word of god, the bible would be it. But anyways, I believe the way I believe because I have found it to be true. Until someone can prove it to be false, I will continue to believe it. I hope you find what you are searching for though. Feel free to look into Christianity...Scientifically and historically...It's pretty stinking solid. Don't let people you percieve to be jerks stop you. But I'd encourage you not to judge pthe faith because of people who claim to follow it. Judge it based on it's docterine. And to judge a docterine soundly, you'd have to research it fully. Anywho, sorry to make you sick. Not my intentions at all. Sometimes my words sound differently in my head than they do out loud.

Erik .
But you know the bible has been reworded and rewritten so many times and translated and retranslated it's, and most bible scholars agree, that it's almost gibberish from whatever it may have originally been? with the bastardization of it from ruler to ruler to translation to ruler to translation to ruler? not counting other stuff like mormonism

Erik .
you didn't make me sick as much as the other dude. i never think it's ok to justify the few limiting others based on something only the few believe.

Amy .
correct.

Erik .
Still makes me sick.
Take care.

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Erik .
I'm really sorry. I don't care about what religious people want to do with themselves.

And I really never wanted to get involved in that thread to begin with. I just have a hard time with people trying to walk on others.. I want to apologize directly if you took offense to anything (assuming you're not actively trying to "stop gay marriage" or force them to accept some other word/label/name for the same thing...)

I want everyone to be able to do what they want without anybody else screaming and chasing them down the street with a gun (literally happened in front of me a couple years ago.)

Erik .
one reason I sent this in PM is because now we're going in the same circle I just went in a few other times in that thread, only you and i are besides them and i

Brit .
You just gotta actually accept that other peoples views are different than yours and it doesn't mean they're wrong. Just because YOU believe something doesn't mean it's the only right thing. And not wanting to give gay marriage the same name....honestly, who the eff cares if they're doing the same thing anyways. Why get caught up in such a stupid detail like what to call it when the real issue is if they have the right to actually be together or not? Who cares what you call it? Call it pop tart for all I care, it still doesn't matter to me. You're basically asking government to put a label on it. You're saying that nobody has a right to take a name away from anyone, well they don't have the name in the first place.... Therefore if we don't have the right to take it a way, we don't have the right to give it either. It doesn't just come into existence all the sudden because a certain group wants it to be called marriage and so everyone has to agree whether they're for it or against it. That's taking away rights, I just want you to see that. By saying everyone has to vote a certain way on something they might not agree on, you're taking away their freedom to believe and vote how they want. If people didn't want this issue, they shouldn't have taken it to government where they force everyone to agree with them. THAT is not right either. If government could have kept their noses out, then everyone would have the right to their own opinions without having to vote either way. We SHOULDNT have to vote on someone elses lifestyle. That's the point i really want to make. People SHOULDNT be Put in a place where they either vote a certain way or theyre labeled a bigot. And votes shouldn't be won by bullying people into believing a certain way.

Erik .
If you read the thread, I wasn't asking for the government to put a label on it. I want the government to NOT ISOLATE the gay people and let them get married too. It's really massively simple.

Brit .
You're asking a government which is ran by votes. That is anything but simple.

Erik .
I really want to cry heh

Brit .
Well, it's just the truth. Nothing about government is simple.

Erik .
I didn't say the process to get there was simple. I mean, and let me try to word this so it can't be misread...

The idea that people should be able to get married based on evolving definitions as the vast majority of humanity understands it.... is simple.

Erik .
I knew I should have just ignored a post that got me into that thread after all.

Erik .
but I strongly believe enabling is wrong. and I feel if I just sat and watched somebody say something wrong without "Hey buddy..... that's actually... not correct" ..... I would be enabling someone being generally wrong and rude... you know? I really try not to be rude. But how do you disagree with someone without possibly ever looking rude? plus it was complicated for a huge stretch by facebook only showing updates on my phone and not accepting posts by the computer. so I had to pick away at the keyboard on the phone. I can only type about one tenth as fast as normal on the phone thus I was falling behind and trying to respond to a few things at once as clearly and as compact as I could... apparently I failed.

Erik .
I'm really sorry if I stressed you or annoyed you or made you mad. Or Amy for that matter, as she's a good person. It was mainly Seth's bullshit that helped steer it all out of control. I suspect my not labeling the responses to seth... that was probably read as responses to Amy. And that's unfortunate.

Brit .
If that's how you feel, sure. You see it as black and white as you wish it would be, I see it realistically not being as simple as we'd like it to be. It shouldnt be put to a public vote where we all have to agree with something about somebody else's lifestyle. We shouldn't have to. It's their life. And I'm on my phone too.
And you don't have to backtrack just because I don't agree with what you say, or whatever. Not that I'm really disagreeing, I just think the whole thing is really unfair on both ends.

Erik .
I know it's not as black and white as I wish it would be. I think that is pretty clear too, that I wish it was, and it isn't. I think it's clear that I hope it one day becomes black and white and clear to more people. I think that's why I at least try.
I never backtracked.

Brit .
You started talking and clarifying previous stuff you said, and wishing you never got into the convo, etc.... It wasnt a put down, geez.

Erik .
I mean, I would never have walked away from being Lutheran if a few core people along the way didn't offer challenges to my beliefs (beyond that which gives itself as challenges against itself in the king james version of the bible)...
hahahaha, well, do you blame me for clarifying at this point? haha

Brit .
Right. Which is why I said backtracking. Lolz.

Erik .
Either way...
plus facebook has been lagging like crazy so I'm not sure when you've even been seeing stuff

I never once said all religious people. I'm pretty sure I didn't need to repeat that again. But if religious people are going to bring up the argument, they should expect the opposition who disagree with them to speak to them as well as the government. And I assure you it's being represented in the argument on the government side.

Maybe we will all be very lucky and see a day when government steps aside from all personal life stuff. (though the argument will then shift away from government and between people directly. I'm sure that'll go great :( probably how the government got involved anyway... I'm not clear on that one. Don't directly recall anything about that off the top of my head at this moment.

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Erik .
which person was the bible comment toward, many people in that thread hahaha

Erik .
either you keep deleting your comments or facebook is just being really strange with showing in notifications but not updating on the actual thread haha

Seth .
Facebook is unwieldy these days. The only comments I've read are the ones you've typed in response to me so far. I haven't had time to read beyond her status yet.

Erik .
yeah I had to go on my phone to see yours.
no offense by the way, it just looked like, by your comment, you actually are the one who hasn't read the bible and i have to say, i wish i never did
i was much happier believing what i learned at church and being lutheran haha

Seth .
I've read it multiple times, and I'm glad I have!

Erik .
and you don't remember all the crazy stuff like she hinted at? ..... like i asked and didn't see an answer to, what version, exactly? as the "word of god" has been telephone gamed so much so many versions that are vastly different exist...
it's really hard to take you two seriously in the thread
and i am severely hamstringed because i have to type the comments in that thread on a cell phone which is amazingly slower than if i had a keyboard
I'm really done there dude. It just got stupid. I'm not even reading new posts there.
I walk away when words start getting stupidly twisted like that.

Seth .
I too am on a phone.

Erik .
no worries. it's over now. have a good day.

Seth .
Totally over because you say so xD

Erik .
...... Well we can keep going if you really want to. but considering after you and amy reworded or otherwise misunderstood half the shit I said mixed with facebook lagging, me not directing responses specifically and the confusion that followed leading into ms. schoel feeling the need to redo the entire conversation after you two quit responding..... and then my realizing i pretty much got trolled by 3 people over 2 hours thus deciding to delete all my posts to better highlight and illustrate you three saying one thing then saying other things which exactly contradicted what the very same people were saying they were against doing.... sometimes in the same post.... yeah, petty sure it's fucking over.

i was warned this was typical shit you do but i fucking fed into it anyway.

You can no longer message Seth .. Learn more. (aka blocked him because i literally have no reason to continue talking to this troll douche.)

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